The Last Debate
Okay, so they’re over. Reactions?
What did you think of McCain’s attempt to steal Obama’s “Joe the Plumber” thunder? Do you think McCain could have explained how his economic plan would effect Joe the Plumber off the cuff? It turns out ol’ Joe thinks Barack Obama is a socialist, which just goes to show that Joe the Plumber is kind of dumb. Funny how the people most certain that Obama is not a socialist are actual socialists.
Joe six pack and Joe the plumber. The Republican ticket are obviously making a play for that market. A few conservatives, the “philosophical”, “intellectual” sort have already said they don’t want any part of it.
I think Joe the Plumber has a lot more traction for the McCain camp. It has given McCain a narrative to run on in the Race’s home stretch. Obama is surely refining his talking points to counter.
The two things advertised going into the debate 1. The Economy and 2. William Ayers were brought up.
It’s true. I wish American citizens would look into the differences between socialism and communism. They use these two words interchangeably as a scare word to think that if we use any aspects of socialism that America as we know it will disappear! All one has to look at is social security for a socialist-like policy.
Hearing all the talk on Joe the plumber made me crack up while watching the debate. I don’t think that many people care about Joe the Plumber or his cousin Mr. Six-pack.
Long time listener, first time poster! Have a good day.
Joe Schmoe, I’m sick of all these Joes!
McCain is desperate and it shows.
At least he knows who to call now that his campaign is down the toilet.
I don’t think even Joe the Plumber will be able to pull it out.
It looks like “Joe the Plumber” is actually related by marriage to CHARLES KEATING. So the claims that he’s a Republican PLANT are true.
From Crooks and Liars:
“Turns out that Joe Wurzelbacher from the Toledo event is a close relative of Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who’s Robert Wurzelbacher? Only Charles Keating’s son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. The now retired elder Wurzelbacher is also a major contributor to Republican causes giving well over $10,000 in the last few years.”
lol, fantastic
What I don’t understand is, why is Joe so greedy. Obama’s tax plan will increase Joe’s taxes….a WHOPPING 3%!!!!
A 3% increase isn’t going to hurt Joe and his 250k a year, and for people making millions of dollars, it will add a lot of revenue to the govt. Maybe we could finally afford to do some things we have needed to do for awhile. The highest tax bracket used to be 90%, and the country still operated just fine. There were still rich people and poor people, and no communist flags.
Unless I’m wrong, Obama wants the highest tax bracket to go from 36% to 39%, and I don’t understand the greed from people that they can’t give an additional 3 mutherfukkin percent.
Big Brother Reply:
October 16th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
It’s not even clear to me that ol’ Joe would be hit by the increase, even. I mean, does he not plan to claim any deductions? Like a vehicle? Like parts? Surely that would take his taxable revenue below $250k, even if he grosses his high-end estimate of $280k!
Tucker Reply:
October 16th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Exactly…he is not going to be taxed on his gross amount. He will be taxed on the NET portion that spills over into the 39% bracket. All of the income up to 250k will be at the corresponding (lower)rates. I’m an accounting major, and I could be wrong, but the additional taxes that he will actually be responsible, will be very immaterial.
If you are still undecided you probably cant decide which was way is up. No one knows what to do about the economy John or Obama. At least Obama is realistic about it.
John started off really strong regarding the economy but this was his 3rd try on getting it right. Barack knocked it out of the park the 1st two so there was not much to improve on.
Once the discussion turned to everything else Barack was able to articultate and relate to the american people so much better.
He had a chance to attack Sarah and passed. Of course McCain nailed Joe.
Obama’s a class act all the way!
steve, jasper Reply:
October 16th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Yea, the folks that are still undecided strike me as the same type whose head spins when they walk down the cereal aisle at the grocery.
Make a friggin decision!
If you don’t have enough info to choose between A or B at this point then you’re living under a rock!
All the stations parading the “undecideds” afterwords was just a sideshow.
Joe the plumber is a Bafoon and it shows.
If any of you have seen or heard the actual recording of the convo. btwn Barack and Joe will know this. Barack explained his plan in very simple terms.
If Joe business makes about 270k per yr.
assuming that that is his NET profit after expenses then Joe would ONLY be taxed 3% more for the portion OVER 250k NOT the entire income. So if he makes 20k over 250k Joe would pay roughly 39% tax wich is 3%more that what it is now on ONLY 20k which by my estimate would be $1200 per year more in tax although a portin of that would be offset by the tax cut on the 250k. So if that stops Joe from pursuing owning his business cause he does not want to pay the $1200. . . well then keep making your 60-80K as an employee of your plumbing business you dummy.
I agree that there should be a few more than three debates between the Presidential candidates. This one was clearly better than the first two and I have a feeling a fourth and fifth would be better still. Maybe it’s just me but it seemed that Senator McCain, with each successive debate, found it more and more difficult to compose himself; with this third debate it looked like he was on the verge of blurting out in exasperation, “Who the hell do you think you are, that you can compete with me for the Oval Office?” His latent sense of entitlement nearly displayed itself overtly in this debate. (Watching him roll his eyes, shake his head, drop his chin on the table, etc., was very revealing.) So it just leaves me wondering what sort of McCain we would see in a fourth or fifth debate.
There are, of course, far more compelling reasons for further Presidential debates, not least of which is the opportunity for more refined discourse and critiques of each others platforms. This debate will be strictly about the economy, that one will be strictly about foreign relations, the next will be strictly about healthcare, etc; none of this trying to cram multiple complex issues into a single 90-minute debate. The candidates scarcely have enough time to get beyond their talking points. By the time they have briefly described their platform, they are out of time and it’s time for the other candidate to respond. And a week later the whole thing is done all over again, the only variation being whether the candidates debate standing up, sitting down, or doing a hand-stand.
For me, one of the most remarkable moments in the debate—just one of them—was with the John Lewis and Bill Ayers segment of the debate. Schieffer asked them whether or not they were willing to confront one another with the negative points that their campaigns have said about each other. McCain, who was selected to go first, brought up the Lewis comment and described in anguished rhetoric how much that “hurt” him and how “very unfair and totally inappropriate” Lewis’ comment was. Obama responded in two stages. First he answered the point directly, but then he took it further by stating that “the American people are less interested in our hurt feelings during the course of the campaign than addressing the issues that matter to them so deeply,” that although vigorous debates are a good thing, “what [the American people] deserve over the next four weeks is that we talk about what’s most pressing to them: the economic crisis.” Going further, Obama said:
“What I think is most important is that we recognize that [in order] to solve the key problems that we’re facing, if we’re going to solve two wars, the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, if we’re going to focus on lifting wages that have declined over the last eight years and create jobs here in America, then Democrats, independents and Republicans are going to have to be able to work together. And what is important is making sure that we disagree without being disagreeable. And it means that we can have tough, vigorous debates around issues. What we can’t do, I think, is try to characterize each other as bad people. And that has been a culture in Washington that has been taking place for too long.”
There was more to this great moment than what I’ve described here. On the subsequent question of Bill Ayers and ACORN, Obama once again answered the point directly and succinctly but then, again, took it as an opportunity to demonstrate his Presidential character and stature. He said that there is a significant difference between McCain’s efforts to show Obama as having “troubling” associations and the actual, relevant associations he does have. “Let me tell you who I associate with,” he said, and then described the rather bi-partisan influences he surrounds himself with (Joe Biden, Warren Buffett, Paul Volcker, Dick Lugar, etc.). “Those are the people—Democrats AND Republicans—who have shaped my ideas and who will be surrounding me in the White House.” Another stellar opportunity Obama seized and turned into a moment of political integrity, and awareness of the real concerns Americans have.
Lest anyone think me frivolous, I must state that I have considered the responses of both candidates very seriously. And though it sounds totally irresponsible, I have to say that I so enjoy listening to an articulate, well-spoken person (Obama) who can pronounce nuclear correctly that I would almost vote for him on the basis of that. Call me OCD, but I cannot bear the mispronunciation of that and other words that are spelled phonetically and thus, should be pronounced that way. I was an English concentration in undergraduate work and that may be the reason for my simplistic views. At this point in the seemingly neverending campaigns I’d be willing to vote for someone who doesn’t aggravate me gramatically.
I was about to say that Bill Press, from Sirius Left, stated that Joe The Plumber sounded and looked like a plant.
I’ve dealt with plenty of plumbers in my life and this guy was waaaaaaaay too articulate about the whole situation. Then when you look at what he said, it mirrors, almost word for word, everything that Phil Graham and Lindsey Graham had said.
Then, from above, we find out that Joe IS a plant. It truly shows desperation on McCain’s part.
Looks like someone in Davenport wanted to kill McCain. Here’s a story from my local news paper.
I wonder if this was one of the guys that accosted me while I sat in my car at a stop light??
Here’s a link to the story, since I can’t remember what the rules are about posting news stories:
http://www.qctimes.com/articles/2008/10/16/news/local/doc48f80675c550a614017861.txt?sPos=2
I’m still surprised people haven’t picked up on the quotation marks McCain used when Obama said he didn’t agree with the any law that would object to a woman having an abortion if her health depended on it. McCain said they always want to talk about a woman’s “health”. Was that sarcastic, demeaning and showing no concern for women or what?
steve, jasper Reply:
October 17th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
Anyone who thinks McCain and his ilk are for women’s rights just because of Palin are easily fooled.
The far right of the political spectrum, to which Palin panders, are anything but women’s rights advocates.
Did anyone see that wacked out Congresswoman from Minnesota on Hardball today? She wants to have an inquiry to see who is Anti-American and who is not in the US Congress. Wow where is this country going? I am starting to get kind of worried that this is going to end real badly on 11/4. McCain/Palin have created a movement of thier own. I am going to call it the “Neo-hate” movement. I know Pete is agnostic, but I think in a few weeks we are all going to need some Jesus in our lives if shit hits the fan.
David from BC Reply:
October 18th, 2008 at 5:18 am
Anti-American? How about Todd and Sarah Palin (Alaskan Independence Party)?
Fettered Boons Reply:
October 20th, 2008 at 7:08 am
I understand the political inquiry but why exactly would we need Jesus?
This kind of reminds me of Napolean Bonaparte when he said, “Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.” The basic point is that instead of dealing with these issues, the position you are advocating here is the cartoon ostrich sticking it’s head in the sand.
I’m not downsizing your beliefs; I just think you have your head in the wrong area.
Boons, I think you misread my comment. That is the trouble with this medium. We would all need to some Jesus in our Lives was a tongue in cheek joke. However I do believe in Jesus Christ. I know we all do not feel the same way.
Now your statement that religion is “the cartoon ostrich sticking it’s head in the sand.” is offensive. You oversimplify a complecated issue. I understand that faith is just that, faith. It is believing that there is something larget than yourself. It is hard though to accept that you are not in control. Now that being said, it is possible to have faith and thinking critcally.
My problem with your generalization is that you do “downsize” everyone’s beliefs with your comments. God Bless.
Fettered Boons Reply:
October 20th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
It seemed a bit hard to tell without hearing your voice but I do apologize. That just reminded me of an earlier conversation with a Bush enthusiast whose only reason for supporting him was because he prays and his liking of Sarah Palin for the sake of her take on Iraq.
Also, I didn’t make a generalization, that was only based on the comment “think in a few weeks we are all going to need some Jesus in our lives if shit hits the fan.” God Less. (Tongue and Cheek)
Nick_from_IA Reply:
October 20th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Boons,
I think the crazed religious folks who vote based on thier religion are what makes it tough to be religious these days.
Oh and I am half white half Mexican and I am voting for Obama because he is black. Just wanted everyone to know….
Nick_from_IA,
You’re right and this fact does not get anywhere near the recognition it has spent centuries earning: there is such a thing as Christians who think critically. Moreover, there are Christians such as myself who in fact LOVE thinking critically. It is a PASSION.
Not only that but I have spent three or four years engaging atheists in philosophical debate, mostly online, and far too many of them like to imagine themselves as critical thinkers but prove otherwise when put to the test. And this is found on the scholarly level too, like the debate between John Frame (Christian) and Michael Martin (atheist), the debate between Greg Bahnsen (Christian) and Gordon Stein (atheist), the book written by Alistair McGrath (Christian) critically shredding “The God Delusion” by Richard Dawkins (atheist); i.e., there are verifiable examples of Christians proving to be more skeptical than atheists.
The brainless Republican Christian fundies are a minority. Despite how vocal they are, it does nothing to mitigate their minority. I’m tired of born-again Christians like myself being stereotyped as “retarded” because of them.